Dusty The Red
It seems oddly appropriate on the 99th anniversary of the Cubs' last World Series win in 1908, that the manager who came closest to bringing them back to the WS at any time since 1945, Dusty Baker, would get another chance to manage a major league team. This time it's the Cincinnati Reds. Baker reportedly signed a three-year deal, which will officially be announced at a press conference tomorrow.
I come here neither to bury Baker nor to praise him, but simply, as I did in July 2006 when I finally gave up any premise of supporting him, to explain what I think will happen as he takes over a division rival (and we won't have to wait long to see him; the Reds arrive at Wrigley Field for the thirteenth game of the 2008 season on April 15).
One of the reasons Dusty Baker had fourteen seasons as a major league manager was his instant success at turning two moribund franchises into winners. The 1993 Giants won 103 games, missing the playoffs on the season's final day (and they'd have been a wild card winner in any subsequent season, as the '93 NL West race was termed "The Last Real Pennant Race"); this was after a 90-loss season the year before.
Yes, a big part of that was the addition of the pre-big head Barry Bonds to the team; but another part of it was players' manager Baker, who at the time was only 44 years old and only seven years away from his last days as a player. Baker, from descriptions I've heard, not only was a "players' manager", but wanted to BE one of the guys. He never took charge of a clubhouse the way a manager should. In his early Giants days he had Will Clark keeping some semblance of control, and later on Matt Williams and Jeff Kent, as the Bonds show would have otherwise distracted from the goal at hand, Williams and Kent helped Baker's Giants teams make the postseason three times.
Similarly, with the Cubs in 2003, Baker's easygoing nature helped take a 95-loss team to a Central Division title and -- well, you know the final result. Part of his success was due to the clubhouse leadership of Damian Miller and Eric Karros. By 2004, with those players gone, and no player-leaders there to replace them, the clubhouse dissolved into factions, and Baker's influence over Jim Hendry helped stack the roster with the Rey Ordonezes, Enrique Wilsons, Tony Womacks, and Neifi Perezes of the world, with predictable results.
This is likely what will happen with the 2008 Reds. Without knowing much about the managerial styles of Jerry Narron and Pete Mackanin (who managed the Reds to a winning record, 41-39, and who probably deserved at least a chance to see what he could do with a full season of a healthy team), it seems likely that the player-friendly attitudes of Baker might give the Reds a real bounce for one season. We joke about Baker's tendencies to ride pitchers hard, to misuse his bullpen and to put Neifi on every team he manages (would he really try to bring Tom Goodwin back? Only time will tell). It's very likely that walk-machine Adam Dunn will be traded in the offseason for pitching help; if not, you can joke all you want about Baker telling Dunn "don't walk so much, Dude", but Baker would also probably adore Dunn's big, broad swing that produces 150+ strikeouts a year (and 40+ HR, too). What will be most interesting to see is what Dusty does with top Reds pitching prospect Homer Bailey, or youngish relievers like Todd Coffey and Jared Burton, and especially with Jay Bruce, Baseball America's 2007 Minor League Player of the Year, who by consensus should be starting somewhere in Cincinnati's outfield in 2008. The Reds could have a bounce to contention in 2008, perhaps even squeaking into the playoffs -- where they'd probably fall, due to some move or non-move of Bakers, and then revert to mediocrity in 2009 and beyond.
So welcome back to the fray, Dusty. If the comments at the SB Nation Reds site Red Reporter are any indication, you're in for a rough ride. And at least we won't have to listen to him on ESPN next year. If we learned anything from that, we now know Baker's far worse behind a microphone than he is in a dugout.
Oh, there's a NLCS game tonight, too. The Rockies were 12-5 at home in September and October -- the only loss was to the Diamondbacks. So maybe there's a chance this series won't be a sweep; the Indians made the ALCS interesting last night, in a game whose ending was seen by hardly anyone east of the Mississippi. What do they have to do to get these games over at a reasonable hour -- start them at noon?
MLB.com Gameday for the Rockies/Diamondbacks game (7:37 pm CT start)
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Comments
Dusty's Back
Enjoy him Cincy!
by Goat Whisperer on Oct 14, 2007 10:17 AM CDT 0 recs
Random Thought
by CubFan BudMan on Oct 14, 2007 10:17 AM CDT 0 recs
Yes.
by Al on
Oct 14, 2007 11:25 AM CDT
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I'm starting ...
If memory serves, Dunn is under contract through options for two more years. He's not cheap, but he wouldn't require a long-term deal. In two years, when the contracts for Sori, Ramirez, Lee, Lilly, et. al begin to escalate, Dunn can be off the books.
Other pluses: He's left handed and he walks a lot. He also, a much improved left fielder. And he crushes the ball at Wrigley.
Minuses: He also strikes out a lot and he's almost as confounding a player as Sori (lots of talent, hard to figure). Oh, and who knows if the Reds would be willing to trade him to the Cubs.
But I BET he could be had for some relief pitching and prospects. The Reds have a glut of outfielders (Griffey, Freel, Hamilton, Hopper).
Am I crazy?
by elgato on Oct 14, 2007 10:27 AM CDT 0 recs
I wanted Dunn very badly at one time...
by Al on
Oct 14, 2007 11:25 AM CDT
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disagree with you, Al
I think the Reds need more bullpen help than anything else. But let's say they want starters and relievers -- how about Marshall, Wuertz and Gallagher?
Lou seems to have something against Marshall (whereas Dusty gave him his shot in 2006), Wuertz is good, but behind Marmol, Howry and Dempster (and Wood, probably, if he's re-signed). And Gallagher is behind Z, Lilly, Hill and Marquis and probably Kevin Hart.
by elgato on
Oct 14, 2007 11:43 AM CDT
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That deal wouldn't happen for at least...
by Damen Jackson on
Oct 14, 2007 2:52 PM CDT
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actually
by stevegoodman on
Oct 14, 2007 3:56 PM CDT
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I know what you meant...
by Damen Jackson on
Oct 14, 2007 4:29 PM CDT
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I can't for a second
They need him because they have so many injury-prone players, and his combination of speed and average is at the heart of the Angels offensive philosophy. I'm not saying they wouldn't trade Figgins, but prying him out of Anaheim would be like prying a nickel away from Carl Pohlad.
by Josh77 on
Oct 15, 2007 12:58 AM CDT
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Someone should tell that to...
So with his value fairly high this off-season, I expect Figgins to leave.
by Damen Jackson on
Oct 15, 2007 7:41 AM CDT
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Well
Doesn't invalidate your point, which you made before that. But it now looks like Mike Scioscia is firmly in charge in Anaheim, and he loves Figgins.
I don't know what part of the fan base isn't in love with Figgins. I never heard any grumbling about him at Angels Stadium and mostly heard very loud and enthusiastic cheers.
by Josh77 on
Oct 17, 2007 12:51 PM CDT
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don't the Angels already have a DH...
Maybe Garret is not in their plans for next year?
by ballhawk on
Oct 15, 2007 1:22 PM CDT
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At this Point
by frustratedfan on
Oct 15, 2007 1:43 PM CDT
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Agree on all points, but...
That's why I put more credence in the Tejada or A-Rod rumors. I wouldn't do it if I were GM, but I see one those happening more likely than trading for Dunn. Unless they can offload Matthews Jr on some team who can afford an overpaid centerfielder... uh oh, I hope Jim Hendry isn't reading this...
by ballhawk on
Oct 15, 2007 6:39 PM CDT
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I'm not sure...
by Al on
Oct 14, 2007 5:55 PM CDT
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he was merely bad
by stevegoodman on
Oct 14, 2007 6:08 PM CDT
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he makes Soriano look like
by JB 23 on
Oct 14, 2007 9:44 PM CDT
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HA HA!!
by TheEman on
Oct 15, 2007 8:06 PM CDT
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I said Baker would not manage
by SonnyJ9 on Oct 14, 2007 11:21 AM CDT 0 recs
excellent point
by elgato on
Oct 14, 2007 12:01 PM CDT
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Don't think he'll make em great
Dusty's good teams have had guys he can lean on... superstars. In '03 he had Wood, Prior, and a still solid Sammy Sosa. But the Reds don't have those guys. Harang is great, and I think Arroyo had a bad year and will at least be OK next year. But after that the pickings get pretty slim.
The Reds strike me as a team of guys who pick each other up without the big offensive name. Sure there's Griffey and Dunn. But Griffey is aging and Dunn has his limitations, I mean sometimes he was hitting 5th. They'll need team unity (and a bullpen) to become contenders.
Maybe Dusty won't need to provide that leadership because these guys have been playing together already. But if they take on more than a few new players, I think they'll start to lose their chemistry.
by WittyUserName on Oct 14, 2007 12:05 PM CDT 0 recs
The race card is played...
Or maybe part of it is Baker's African-American. Is that it? Tell me it's not. Marvin Lewis is African-American, but that's the Bengals, here just since 1968, never taken as personally around here as the Reds. I'd like to think we're past skin color. Wishing doesn't make it so.
This is from Cincinnati Enquirer columnist Paul Daugherty
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071014/COL03/310140017
Its amazing that a local columnist had to do this kind of damage control less than 24 hours after Baker agreed to a deal. But this comment is just so disturbing. To pretend that Dusty was a perfect manager and totally undeserving of any criticism denies reality. To think that the hundreds of negative comments are based on racism is just a crock. I'm left wondering if this columnist was a keen observer of what happened in Chicago and is trying to become Dusty's newest best friend in a city that is none too thrilled about their new manager.
DmL
by dmlichte on Oct 14, 2007 1:26 PM CDT 0 recs
not so tough
by HerrProf on Oct 14, 2007 1:40 PM CDT 0 recs
Dusty managing the Cincinnati Reds
Look out, Pirates, they're gunning for you. Your days of owning the #6 spot in the NL Central are numbered!
by Rev Gunia on Oct 14, 2007 2:38 PM CDT 0 recs
Anyone want to post on Red Reporter
TRUSTY" shirts ? I would take $10 plus shipping for mine
Normally I would sincerely wish Dusty the best but as he is managing a division rival I can't do that.
by jessica on Oct 14, 2007 2:40 PM CDT 0 recs
I heard Dusty say one of the ESPN games...
Anyway, good luck Dusty. Try the chili dogs.
by bison on Oct 14, 2007 3:13 PM CDT 0 recs
Well, this
by sue369 on Oct 14, 2007 3:32 PM CDT 0 recs
Funny take on Dusty's 2008
http://mvn.com/mlb-cubs/2007/10/14/2008-cincinatti-reds-year-in-review/#more-1219
by moldyfolky on Oct 14, 2007 4:22 PM CDT 0 recs
I am speechless.
by Al on
Oct 14, 2007 5:55 PM CDT
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Spit Take!
by Goat Whisperer on
Oct 14, 2007 6:13 PM CDT
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haha the best part!
by Chanman25 on
Oct 14, 2007 6:36 PM CDT
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That Just Made My Day
by Luigi on
Oct 14, 2007 7:42 PM CDT
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Simply
by Johnny Callison was a Cub on
Oct 14, 2007 9:05 PM CDT
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Boy, Was That Good
by 08Cubs on
Oct 14, 2007 8:57 PM CDT
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dusty..
by cubsluver22 on Oct 14, 2007 7:28 PM CDT 0 recs
You're wrong about the '04 team.
They might have made it if Dusty hadn't been so pigheaded about keeping LaTroy Hawkins, who was NOT suited to closing, as his closer. Hawkins blew saves in two key games in the final week.
by Al on
Oct 14, 2007 8:14 PM CDT
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Not sure about that
-03 team was solid in the 1 and 2 holes
-they had a closer with a heart
-they could manufacture runs
the 04 team was more talented on paper, but in the end, the one dimensional offense killed them. It's sort of the same lesson we learned in 07.
by MPH73 on
Oct 15, 2007 12:19 PM CDT
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I agree with most of your assessment, but....
by LuisSalazar on
Oct 15, 2007 8:01 PM CDT
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A lot of us...
He'd have been far better than Hawkins.
by Al on
Oct 15, 2007 8:10 PM CDT
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in september 2004
by stevegoodman on
Oct 16, 2007 12:36 PM CDT
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Still..
by Al on
Oct 16, 2007 4:23 PM CDT
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It might not have worked
by MPH73 on
Oct 16, 2007 5:39 PM CDT
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It was even more clear...
Instead, Baker put Dempster in the rotation, where he sucked, and let Hawkins blow game after game.
You're right, Hendry should have intervened. If Baker pulls this sort of stuff with the Reds, the fans there will turn on him very, very quickly -- and he doesn't really have much fan backing there to begin with.
by Al on
Oct 16, 2007 9:20 PM CDT
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Bottom line with Baker
This is why I think Piniella has been so good for the Cubs. He has the mind to understand what he has and what he needs, and IMO do a much better job of that than Hendry could do on his own.
by MPH73 on
Oct 17, 2007 9:43 AM CDT
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agree 100%
looking back on it, i totally understand the hope people had for patterson coming back healthy in CF in '04 after his great '03 first half, but in reality resignging lofton would have made all the difference in the world. the cubs really took off after that pittsburgh trade in '03. he was such a sparkplug (plus aramis). hindsight is 20/20 i guess.
the management did have a huge effect though. the refusal to supplant hawkins as closer was ridiculous. i'll never forget latroy making the pickoff move to first and hitting the baserunners helmet.
by bikemonkey on
Oct 17, 2007 12:37 AM CDT
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Scott Eyre ...
First, Eyre said that he really likes both Piniella and Baker, but it seems that, at least at first, he wasn't too keen of Piniella. Eyre basically said something to the effect of him eventually really liking Piniella.
Scott acknowledged that Lou and Dusty are very different managers. As has been widely stated, Scott said that Dusty allowed the players to run the clubhouse and actually said that Dusty had no rules. Lou had to come in and do things like tell players that it was not okay for them to be playing cards 10 minutes before the game, which Eyre said was happening in 2006. It was interesting to listen to because Scott talked about how much he liked Dusty but then also pointed out the culture that Lou had to get rid of which Eyre conceded was not good.
Seeing the Cubs evolution over the course of the year, one has to assume that the improvement was, in part due to the change in professionalism and expectation.
DmL
by dmlichte on Oct 14, 2007 8:05 PM CDT 0 recs
I believe the Reds
Hey how about Votto for Marshall!!!
by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Oct 14, 2007 9:11 PM CDT 0 recs
the red's really would be foolish to trade for a
They will have to morgage the farm to do so, and pay him. In stone for next season they have Harang and Arroyo, Harang was as good, if not better, then Zambrano was in 2007, and Arroyo had a lot of loses, but he still pitched 200 innings, and his ERA was 4.2somthing. His ERA inflated in a horrible stretch in late May and June, after he had pitched 110+ pitches in 4 straight starts, the last of those starts he threw 129 pitches in a CG lose. After that, he had several starts in which his velocity wasn't going much above 85. He was pushed back in the rotation a couple of times, and he ended the season strong. Arroyo pitched 240 innings in 2006, and he then pitched in Japan. It is to be expected that he would have worn down a little.
It is more then likely out of Spring Training Homer Bailey will have a spot in the rotation. He will go through the growing pains of every young pitcher, but he will have flashes of brilliance, to go with his disastors.
Matt Belise will likely get a spot in the rotation. 2007 was a little rough for Belise, but it was also his first season as a full time big league starter. He did pitch really well at times. He throughs in the low to mid 90's and tops out at 94. He has a nice curvball. He may flourish into a solid big league pitcher, or he may flounder, and be a once highly talnted young pitcher, with high velocity, who just never could hack it.
The fifth spot get's muddy. Cueto is a highly touted prospect. He throws in the low to mid 90's, I think tops out around 95. He has excellent command, and one of the best sliders in the minor leagues. He also has only logged a few innings in AAA. He is also 5'11" which makes it hard to project him as a starter over the long hull. If he doesn't have the stamina to hold up as a starter, he could be one hell of a closer. Krivksy is gunn shy about promoting minor leaguers. Tom Shearn finished the season in the rotation, but he was a 30 year old rookie, and he can't be viewed as a serious long term option for the rotation. Elizardo Rameriz had some sucess in 2006, before a shoulder injury, which he also battled for much of last year, caused problems. I expect him to need surgery at some point. Matt Maloney, who the Red's recieved from Philley for Lohse, is a left hander who tops out at about 88 or so, but has an excellent curveball. Phil Dumatrait probably pitched himself out of consideration, if not a Red's uniform, with his 2007 performance. Mike Gosling has a history of starting in the minor leagues, but he is a marginal pitcher at best.
Really the Red's rotation could become very good in a couple of years. If Arroyo doesn't decline to quickly, it is concievable that Bailey, Harang, Cueto, and Arroyo, could be quite a force in 2009 or 2010.
The bullpen is still a mess. Dave Weathers and Jared Burton are the only two pitchers down there, who Dusty will beable to turn to with confidence. There are a number of young relievers with talent though. Bill Bray, received in the Lopez Kearns trade, is a hard throwing lefty, who some have projected as a closer. He lost much of 2007 to a broken finger in Spring Training, then a sore shoulder in June, when he started to build arm strength. Marcus McBeth, who recently converted from an outfielder, is a quailty prospect. He has excellent AAA, he struggled in the big leagues this season, but if he gains some confidence, he could be an excellent setup man. Brad Salmon is in his late 20's and made his big league debut last season. His minor league development may have been hindered because he was drafted as a starting pitcher, and really did not pitch well until he was moved to the bullpen. He throw's hard. Jon Coutlangus had a decent ERA, but a WHIP over 1.5 in his Rockie season. He is a lefty, who struggles against left handers, if he can't improve his WHIP it is difficult to project him as a sucesful reliever pitcher.
by stevegoodman on
Oct 15, 2007 1:09 AM CDT
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Homer Bailey
by frustratedfan on
Oct 15, 2007 9:44 AM CDT
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TBS Coverage
TBS certainly isn't perfect but I've enjoyed their production thus far tonight (even tough someone walked right behind Chip when the camera was fixed on the three broadcasters).
DmL
by dmlichte on Oct 14, 2007 9:50 PM CDT 0 recs
huh
by cubsluver22 on
Oct 15, 2007 7:09 PM CDT
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I agree.
by DeRoMyHero on
Oct 15, 2007 7:37 PM CDT
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Poor Reds fans
by SouthsideCub on Oct 15, 2007 10:46 AM CDT 0 recs
Best post I read on Red Reporter...
REPLY: "doesn't matter, we don't have one!"
HAHAHAHA!
by eamuscatuli1881 on Oct 15, 2007 12:21 PM CDT 0 recs
Cubs postseason...
Watching these games just makes me shake my head and realize how bad we are fundamentals. For example, look how many 2-out runs Cleveland has scored so far. We should be glad our misery ended early.
by ronsanto10 on Oct 15, 2007 1:24 PM CDT 0 recs
I agree
We made the baby backs look completely unbeatable by being under prepared or more so unprepared, basic lack of fundamentals etc etc.
by cubsnlinux on
Oct 15, 2007 2:20 PM CDT
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-sigh -
Cubs not in the same league with the NLCS teams left.
by TheEman on
Oct 15, 2007 8:10 PM CDT
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I'll Agree With...
by Goat Whisperer on
Oct 15, 2007 10:30 PM CDT
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Ha.
by wicubfan on Oct 15, 2007 1:25 PM CDT 0 recs
Dream on
by Itchy on
Oct 16, 2007 12:26 AM CDT
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why don't you make this
In Dusty I never did trusty!
by LAcarl519 on
Oct 17, 2007 9:23 PM CDT
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Poor Aaron Harang
by rrobinson on Oct 15, 2007 1:28 PM CDT 0 recs
This board is D.E.D. dead
I wonder how many people threw themselves off bridges after Game 3?
Enjoy the break guys.
I hope Cuban can buy A-Rod and we should see some fun on this board once again.
Till then.
by whatiswrongwithlarussa on Oct 15, 2007 3:53 PM CDT 0 recs
Don't be surprised if the Reds
Great American Ballpark is actually the perfect place for Dusty to manage. It is a hitter friendly (hack away) ballpark, which requires little thought process regarding offensive strategy.
by MPH73 on Oct 16, 2007 12:43 PM CDT 0 recs
The Cubs mental awareness
It aggravated me as a Cub fan to see this team show less fire and heart every year. The worst part was the Dusty press conferences after the game where he took no blame and didn't say he would change things (something Lou always did as the Cubs were stuck in the mud, making bad plays in the early part of '07).
I am thrilled to have Dusty in our division as I think his player friendly clubhouse will wear thin quickly. The best record for the Dusty-Reds will be 2008, but it will all be based on the success of how far Harang, Arroyo and Bailey take him. Bad fielding and bad execution will grow worse with every season Dusty is at the helm. The man will never change...
by LAcarl519 on Oct 17, 2007 9:33 PM CDT 0 recs


